Jon-Stephen Stansel and Joel Goodman talk about the conference bubble and how best to get everything we can out of attending a conference. Do online conferences present better opportunities for leadership to hear our struggles? Will more people attend online conferences? And how can we turn a sympathy party into a learning experience?
Preaching to the Choir Transcript
[intro banter]
Joel Goodman
I was so pro-conference forever and then I just got beaten down like…
Welcome to the Thought Feeder Podcast. My name is Joel Goodman, and with me is the illustrious Jon-Stephen Stansel, coming to you from a couple of different places in the United States, still hunkered down at home, still working tirelessly on various social media and digital marketing projects. Today J.S. I want to talk about conferences, we want to talk about learning opportunities in the higher ed space, but I think in larger industries entirely.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Yeah, and full disclosure, I am on the conference committee for HighEdWeb, so, plug for that.
But yeah, this year conferences are going to look a lot different. They’re going online, we’re gonna have more webinars, etc this year, and I kind of want to talk today a little bit about how I think this might be a boon to solve some of the issues that I’ve had with conferences in the past that I think is kind of the weak points. And that comes down to preaching to the choir. When I go speak at conferences, as much as I enjoy it, sometimes I feel like the entire audience is made up of people who just agree with me. Other Social Media Managers — and I love seeing all the other Social Media Managers, and I love hearing other Social Media Managers, because it affirms it gives you that feeling like, okay, other people have the same struggles and everything that I’m doing, you know, other people are doing, I’m on the right track — but there’s also a part of me that says, man, I wish there was a VP of Advancement in the audience or a Director of Admissions in the audience to hear what all of these people have to say, you know, I’ll be in a conference, session, hearing a Social Media Manager at a university talking like, man, this is amazing. I wish my boss were here.
And I think a lot of preaching to the choir happens at conferences and I think things shifting to an online option gives us that opportunity to share some of this knowledge with people that may otherwise not be able to attend some of these conferences that we’re at. And likewise, give us the opportunity to hear from people that we don’t normally get to hear from at the conferences that we get to go to.
Joel Goodman
Here’s a question within that though. Do you think that VPs are actually going to attend? Because I think this actually touches on a larger issue within, at least within higher ed and I’m sure this happens in other industries, but there’s, there’s sort of like a, like a caste system. It’s a tiered or superiority split. And there are a lot of conferences, like HighEdWeb, where it’s, it’s honestly not a lot of decision-makers that go. And like HighEdWeb, I’ve been attending hide web since 2008, I think 2008 in Springfield, Missouri, was, was the first HighEdWeb conference that I went to. And I’ve been on the attendee side, I’ve been on the sponsor side, Bravery has had a table there, I’ve worked on the committee, I’ve done web work and creative work for the conference, and I think what a lot of what I’ve heard, is right on that line of what you suggest, is that we just don’t, we don’t get a lot of decision-makers or a lot of leadership that attends that conference. Instead, they’re going to things like AMA Symposium, or they’re going to conferences that are directed specifically at leadership. And I think that’s a problem and I don’t know how we fix that. I also don’t necessarily know that going entirely online with our conferences is going to fix that.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Well, to counter to that. I would argue that by going online or offering online options — you know, last year HighEdWeb live-streamed a few sessions for the first time ever, and I know that there are plans to do that future conferences — you might not be able to get a VP to attend a fully online conference but we might be able to get them to sit down and watch a session, or have it on in the background and listen to highlights. It’s not ideal, but it is a sort of beachhead into that world.
But another thing to address too is yes, VPs have their own conferences, there is a tiered level and there are conferences outside of social media and web design that are going on, and my concern on some of those is that there are people at those conferences, who are presenting on the topics of social media and web design that if we heard, we would have our jaws dropped to the floor, saying, no, that’s the person you’re listening to? Because at an admissions conference, there is an admissions counselor talking about social media strategy that if their University social media manager was there he would say, oh my god you’re, you’re presenting the exact thing I told you not to do. So, one, how do we get leadership and break down silos and get those people to learn about what’s being said at other conferences, and vice versa? And how do we get our own profession to present at some of these other conferences and get in front of them? So, so it’s kind of both. Getting leadership to our conferences and getting us to the leadership conferences to present.
Joel Goodman
So two thoughts around that too. So in our industry, again, probably other industries, but definitely within higher ed, there has always been a push from leaders… Like, we’ll take Liz Gross at Campus Sonar for instance. I’ve seen her tweet about how she encourages her staff to submit talks to conferences all the time because it’s a great way to share their knowledge and what they’re doing and there’s often a sentiment expressed from, usually people that are new to higher ed, but even people that don’t consider themselves public speakers or whatever, that they, they don’t feel comfortable, but they want to branch out and do that. So I wonder if part of it is folks just not feeling competent enough to submit to these leadership, these like higher level, more leadership-focused, conferences. Or, I actually kind of think it might be that we’re just not aware of them because they’re not marketing at us and there aren’t a lot of great lists.
I know when I’ve been researching conferences to submit talks to, I’ll go to Campus Sonar’s site and look through the list of where they’re speaking. It’s like, wow, there’s a ton of conferences that are in the higher ed space that just don’t, they don’t market themselves, or we don’t hear about them.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Yeah, I think there’s a lot to unpack here. So, let’s talk about people not submitting to conferences because of nervousness, or it’s another episode where we bring up imposter syndrome.
Joel Goodman
Right.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
if you’re listening to this, you have worthy things to share with the greater professional community. get out there, put yourself out there. Do it. I’ve often said somewhere out there, there is a Social Media Manager that’s working at a community college that is doing incredible things that we don’t know about because they’re not presenting at conferences, and we’re not looking for them.
Joel Goodman
Yeah.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
So you’ve got to cheerlead yourself, you’ve got to get out there yourself.
Two, budgets. It comes down to the fact that I can go present at a conference, but I got to pay to do it, or I’ve got to have the school pay to do it. The school is only going to pay me for me to attend, if I’m lucky, one conference a year. So if I’m going to attend a conference, it’s going to be something like HighEdWeb where I’m going to benefit and I’m going to learn from it in addition to going to present. There’s no incentive for me to ask the school to pay for my one conference a year to go attend an admissions conference to speak there.
So, I think I would like to see conferences offer some sort of, like, almost like an exchange student program, a scholarship for, you know, a web person to attend an Admissions conference and vice versa. I know I’ve seen CASE district scholarships to bring somebody if it’s CASE D-III to bring someone from D-IV to that conference, which is good, but it’s still just another CASE person, just another geographic location. I’d love to see like, oh hey we’re going to bring somebody from outside the world of Advancement and Marketing to this conference to speak to us, and also to learn from us. But again, it kind of comes down to like now that so many conferences are web-based and some are changing their rates, like HighEdWeb is free this year, like, hey, let’s find ways to get some folks that normally wouldn’t attend to attend. That there are ways for that to happen.
Joel Goodman
Yeah, I’m interested to see how HighEdWeb and other conferences going free and online play out. Like, how good their engagement rates are considering that I don’t know…
I think there is some leverage when you have money in the game or skin in the game. Where you’ve had to pay something even if it’s, even if it’s $25. I think about going to like a WordCamp, one of the WordPress regional conferences, and they’re always cheap and they always have online versions of it. But even WordCamp USA, their big overarching one for the whole country. It’s fairly cheap to get a live-stream attendance, but it gives some kind of importance like for me I’m worried that all these different online conferences that are free… So thinking of the All Day All Night conference that you’re going to be speaking at, J.S., os that next week?
Jon-Stephen Stansel
In two weeks.
Joel Goodman
Which is awesome and y’all should go get a ticket because it’s a really cool concept, going 24 hours basically in all time zones and people all over the world speaking, giving their knowledge. Super cool idea. But, along with that, like, I bought a ticket, and I’m already like, I don’t know, it’s gonna be, it’s a lot of webinars and I’m already on webinar fatigue, like most of us are, and it’s just been a lot of this. But, I paid money so I’m gonna, I’m at least gonna pay attention to what’s going on and I may have to time-shift because I don’t want to be up at, you know, 3 am, well maybe I do. 3 am Keynote.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Yeah, webinar fatigue is real and on top of that, I was presenting at CASE SMC online recently, which was fantastic. This is something that I needed to do, not the conference committee needed to do, but I jotted a note down for future conferences. Write a very clear away message for your emails that says, “even though I am technically at my desk and able to respond to you, I am attending a conference right now and I would like you to imagine that I am in a faraway land and unable to deal with a crisis or answer your urgent email to post something on social today. While I am here, I am not really here. The school paid for me to attend this conference, and I need to focus on learning right now because that’s what we’re paying money to do.”
So that’s another issue that I found with webinars. Now, is that we have to be able to clearly say, hey look, we’re at a conference, even though I might be in my office, and I’m not there? Paying for that helps.
Joel Goodman
No doubt. I think money is important in all these things. Even going back to the idea of, how do we get more knowledgeable people to speak at other conferences or to attend other conferences? I think on the speaking side, there are so many conferences that don’t offer stipends or any sort of honorarium for people that are speaking, and that makes it really difficult, also, to justify going out. Unless you’re a keynote speaker, you’re not gonna get paid. And there are conference organizations like Confab that do an awesome job of recognizing that these people with knowledge are giving their time and years and years of learning and hours and hours and hours of preparation for it, as well as having to travel and I wish more conferences paid attention to thanking their speakers. They’re the people that make the conference happen, honestly. I mean there are the people that run the show, there are the people that do the programming and the people that handle renting out space and getting the caterers on board and they do a lot of work. But without speakers, you don’t have anything. Without people sharing their knowledge, you don’t have anything. And I think there’s a little bit of a gap there with some conferences where they, I don’t know, they leave their speakers feeling… especially when the speakers go on to speak at other conferences where they do get some sort of payment or some sort of big thank you.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
I mean even a discount of the conference fee.
Joel Goodman
Yeah, paying the whole conference fee goes a long way. I mean, there was a conference I got accepted to last year that I had to pull out of because I was still gonna have to pay for travel, I was still gonna have to pay for a hotel, and I only got half off the conference fee. And for me, I mean honestly, sometimes I’m a terrible conference attendee. Sometimes I’m going to speak, I’m going to network and to speak and to be there. And there should be some kind of compensation, entirely.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Like, I’ve had to turn down a lot of conferences because I get asked to speak and say, okay, I’d love to do this, but I still have to pay to go to the conference and pay all the travel. I make a Social Media Manager’s salary, I can’t afford to do that out of pocket, and the school is not in the business of sending me around to go help other schools, so they’re not going to pay for more than one. So generally I’ve made a conscious decision of “this is the conference I’m going to go to this year.” I’m going to speak and I’m going to attend and I need to benefit somehow from both. I need to be able to learn at that conference, and I need to want to be able to present to people who will be receptive to what I have to say.
Joel Goodman
A word of advice to conference organizers: If you’re going to ask someone specifically to speak at your conference, compensate them somehow. Like, honestly, I think you’re going to get lower quality people, filling in those knowledge gaps. Or, it goes back to like an Admissions Counselor that happens to have a Twitter and a Facebook, and you know started learning Snapchat two months ago and whatever else speaking at an Admissions Conference on social media. But you could have someone that’s way smarter if you were willing to say, “yeah, of course, it’s comped and we’ve got a hotel room for you out of our block or an extreme discount on it and you know, we’ll pay for your travel,” you know like, that sort of thing.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
But again, we complain about the cost of conferences sometimes and that’s the sort of thing that adds to the cost of the conference like it builds and builds. I’ve been on several, not just HighEdWeb, I’ve been on other conference committees and just looking at the cost to rent out the conference area. Like, you want WiFi? Yeah, that’s another giant fee. You want to feed people? Alright, complain about the food at the conference but every single thing’s gonna add more in there to that cost.
So, you know, I don’t have a total solution to that because I’ve been on both ends of that I’ve been on like a conference selection committee where I’ve had to ask people like, hey, I need, I need 10 people right present, and we can’t pay for you to pay for your travel or anything else.
Joel Goodman
I mean, I’ve been on a location selection committee. I’ve had to deal with, here are 25 bids that we’ve gotten from hotels and convention centers, and whatever else. Which one is going to allow us to do as much as possible, and which one is still going to provide a really good experience for people that are attending? In-person is expensive for anything, right? But I wonder if this shift to digital-only that we’re kind of forced to do, I obviously think that when we have a good handle on the pandemic and there’s a vaccine and we have ways to treat it and therapies for people that get sick with COVID-19, and it’s not necessarily a pandemic anymore, we’ll go back to in-person stuff in some way, in some form. But I think there’s an opportunity to get better speakers by charging a little bit of money because the overhead is so low.
I don’t know, I’ve been researching a lot because I was actually thinking, what if you did in an online conference that was all super-intensive workshop-oriented type of things instead of rehashing a thousand webinars that already exist online? Because I think that’s one that’s one danger in doing a completely online conference. You’re online! You can go to YouTube and search for anything or like hit up SlideShare and find a deck and a link to a talk from five years ago that’s saying the same things. It’s like, cool, someone else is rehashing it. And that’s great too. But there’s a lot a lot a lot a lot of content on the web. When you’re in-person, the thing that’s there is the thing that you’re doing, you know? You’re not going to go sit in your hotel room after paying all that money and search around YouTube for similar conference talks and there’s so much outside of the conference sessions that is useful.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Meeting people and talking to them about your job over drinks or something like that, you know, is a major part of it and I don’t really know that having a Zoom happy hour is the best analog to that.
Joel Goodman
Yeah.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
And again, I don’t have a solution for that. What else can you do? But I do think as we get out of COVID-19 — hopefully soon — we’ll see conferences, offer kind of hybrid options to facilitate some of these things. Where more options for you can attend in-person or have an online ticket or present online to get more people involved and make it more financially accessible to more people. It’s important. We kind of dragged on Advancement and Housing and Admissions conferences, and those are important for them too, but in a tech field that is constantly, constantly changing, day-by-day, it is vital for us to be on top of our game and aware of the latest techniques and best practices and strategies and know what other people are doing, because, one, it changes constantly. Two, we’re often the only ones at our campuses that are the full-time person doing that — and I know I’m in charge of training other social media managers on our campus that run all the smaller accounts who are admin assistants and admissions counselors yeah rely on my knowledge in training. So keeping those people up to date in their professional development is a major part of making sure you’ve got employees that know what they’re doing.
Joel Goodman
I am somewhat of a conference skeptic these days because I’ve been going to conferences forever and ever and ever and I’ve never personally felt I’ve gotten a ton out of it. And that just might be arrogance or it might be a problem that I have, but I also think touched on it, well, you made me think of something. I think you’re right. It’s important that in a tech field we stay up on our game that we know what the latest things are. But I don’t know that conferences, give that. I don’t know that the program committees are ahead of their game or at the forefront of their game enough, in general, to select talks that are going to help you do that. Instead, you get a rehash of the same topics that happened the year before or, I remember one year I went to a conference and there were out of, you know, out of, I don’t know 65 talks, you know in multiple tracks during the conference, there were 11 talks on embedding maps! Like….
It’s a hand-in-hand thing. You need people that are at the top of their game submitting things, but you also need program committees and program selection committees that know what the top of the game means for so many. Especially at a conference with multiple tracks. If you’ve got tracks in marketing and social media and leadership and technical and all this stuff, you have to know all of that. And you as a program selector, have to be looking ahead to, okay, what’s the topic for next year? And I think where they get caught, is that their mode is, what is going to allow us to fill a room? because obviously that’s part of it. As well as, what’s going to allow us to get as many registrations as we can to fill our minimum? A lot of times it just gets watered down. You don’t end up with those advanced, forward-thinking topics. There are a few conferences that are tailored specifically to that, but it’s not that common. I’ve experienced it in higher ed and in tech, it’s just the same stuff.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
It’s interesting, Joel, because when I proposed this being the topic of today’s episode I was all prepared to talk about all of the problems I’ve seen in conferences and wanted to title this episode, Preaching to the Choir, because I think that’s my biggest problem in conferences. We’re just preaching to the choir.
Joel Goodman
I think that’s exactly it.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
But. I’m the opposite of a conference skeptic. [Joel laughs] I’m about to argue with you on this because first, I owe where I am in my career today to conferences like HighEdWeb. It was at a HighEdWeb regional conference in Little Rock, I remember Brent Passmore, two days before, sent me an invite to it and I ran into my boss’s office and said, “Can I go to this?” and she said, “yes.” And I remember going there. I was not a full-time Social Media Manager at the time, I was the International Communications Coordinator or something convoluted like that. And I was thinking about doing social media full time. And I remember going to that conference and going, Oh wow, hang on.
That’s actually where I started using Twitter. I had a Twitter account that I’d never used before, and this active backchannel made me go, oh, maybe I needed to use this and maybe I need to change my username from something really sophomore, like I think it was @ALiquidPaperCut,” to something professional
Joel Goodman
Like @jsstansel.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Yeah, and start using it to connect with other people in my field and things like that. Eventually, I went to a national conference and start making connections with other people in the field. You and I didn’t meet at a conference but we met as a direct result of it.
Joel Goodman
We met through it and I agree with you on that front. Similarly, my career would not be the same without that network. It’s the network, right? It’s the people. For me, it really hasn’t been learning things at the conference from them, it’s been having conversations outside. And HighEdWeb, in particular, they emphasize how good the networking is because it is really good. And I do have great conversations outside. I generally do not have conversations that are related to any of the talks that I saw during the day, or any of the talks that are going on. I generally have conversations with people that connected with. I mean, I actively started using Twitter because of the 2008 conference. You know, I think there’s a lot of overlap there and I would agree that it’s greatly affected me. But it has for me it’s been the networking, it’s been the relationship building. It hasn’t been the knowledge sharing, or at least the formal knowledge sharing.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Well, you’ve never come to one of my conference sessions. So let’s see if we can change that. But back to that. It does come down to, you know, there are sessions that you attend that can be useful some that I’ve seen somewhere I’ve gone, man, that’s a great idea but it’s never gonna work at our university. But it’s still valuable and I still walk away with a greater knowledge of that. I was thinking specifically, Andrew Cassel did one at HighEdWeb a couple of years ago — years are sort of melding together — but about how he was using Twitch at his university. I’m like, this is amazing! But one, I don’t have time, and two, this will never work here. But I’m glad I am aware of it so, if my VP says, “What do you think about Twitch?” I have an answer for that. And there’s value in that and going, this is cool but we can’t do it.
Joel Goodman
Sure.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
And I know why we can’t do it, but there’s also value in — you do need kind of a diverse bit of levels so everybody who gets it… but like, one thing specifically I think about, every year there’s a good conference session at a conference about accessibility, and it’s something that’s really basic but people keep needing to hear the basics on certain issues. Like, there’s going to be a new attendee that has no idea what ALT text is, and is going to have an awakening at the conference. So there’s value there. But yeah, there have been times I’ve said man, I need the advanced level of this, the power user version of this conference session or something like that.
So that said. To all of our friends at on conference committees and organizing conferences, it’s hard work and they’re volunteers, but they’re always trying to improve. And fill out those conference evaluations! They listen to them. It makes the changes for next year and, you know, a lot of people do ignore them but that’s how you get a better conference, reading those conferences evals.
Joel Goodman
Yeah, I think there’s also probably just a leveling out of the audience for different conferences too. See even with the conference evaluations, for me, I don’t know, I always fill them out I have a hard time, not in the moment I have a hard time, but I’m judging the person based on… you know the questions or like, did they speak well? did they feel like they were prepared? on a scale of 1 to 10, how is this applicable to your work? And I’m always like, give people good marks if they didn’t completely bomb it. but for me, I come from a communication background. like public speaking is something that I was critiqued on in college and something I’ve done for a long time. So I’m thinking of it more in that vein. And then the content itself instead of like, I feel bad being like, no, this content is not relevant because maybe it’s not relevant for me, but I don’t necessarily feel like most of it is.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
It goes back to the preaching to the choir. sometimes we need to hear things that are not relevant to our daily jobs because it’s relevant to our university or it’s relevant to someone that we’re working with. So, we need to attend, I, here’s an area. Again, I’m on the conference committee, I’m going to cheerlead HighEdWeb, full disclosure. but where I think they do a really good job is encouraging people to attend those areas outside and they’ve mixed up their track sessions so there’s more web-related stuff and what might be seen as a Social Media track and kind of encouraging people to go to one or two sessions outside their area. And that has been immensely valuable to me. Maybe I’m not a web designer, but I’ve learned more about the struggles and I work better with the web designers at my school because I’ve been to one or two of those sessions and I realize I’ve learned more. But I’ve also learned like, man, there’s so much I don’t know about this, and I need to listen to that expert at my school because I might think I know a little bit, but I’m scratching the surface.
Joel Goodman
Yeah.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
So that’s good too, you know?
So, I was planning on splitting this episode into two sections of preaching to the choir and practicing what we preach but I’m gonna throw that a little bit out the window. But I want to kind of come back to it. So, how do we practice what we preach as far as the way we treat the conferences we attend and branching out a little bit more? So, one thing I think we can do a better job of is following people outside our particular areas and participating in online discussions like the Enrollment Management Chat hashtag, #EMChat. I creep on that every week. I don’t participate that much because when I’m trying to put my kid to bed is when it happens, it’s, I think it’s like Thursday nights at around 8ish Central Time, and I’ll see the questions popping up while I’m saying go to sleep, Winston, go to sleep. But I always check in on that and kind of see what the Enrollment Management folks are talking about. Listening to podcasts outside our area, share this podcast with people outside your area.
Joel Goodman
Especially, the last episode with Ella Dawson. Send that to your boss.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Oh my goodness, yeah, share that with, share that with everybody.
And then when you go to those conferences, make an effort to attend at least one session outside of your area. If you’re going to be there if you if you’re at, you know, the ones that I frequent. You know generally have something to do about web development or advancement which is not my forte and what I do on a daily basis but I want to be able to work with those people a little bit better. And then, from Digital checks. Maybe, maybe I need to share on LinkedIn a little bit more.
Joel Goodman
It’s surprising how active people are on LinkedIn.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
You know, like my Twitter account, I love it. It makes me feel so good every day to see like other social media managers chiming in like, oh yes we agree we have that problem too and that validates like okay yeah I’m not alone. But I also want university presidents and VPs to read some of the rants that I have so maybe I need to do that on LinkedIn.
Joel Goodman
Yeah, I mean I rediscovered LinkedIn was six months ago or eight months ago or something I started being a little bit more active there and I mean there’s a lot going on, a lot of it is, a lot of it is salesy marketing self-help, fluffy you know, whatever, so you if you’ve got real content like it, it needs it.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
Maybe we shoudl bring on a guest to like evangelize LinkedIn to me a little bit because I use it professionally for my job as a social media manager for the voice of the university but I’d never get excited. In the morning, I’m like, oh, let’s see what my Twitter notifications are today, like LinkedIn like I guess I better check LinkedIn see what’s going on.
Joel Goodman
And it’s always like this person shared something you might be interested in, but it doesn’t tell me what it is. I don’t know why they think I’m interested in some person and what some person is sharing you know? sometimes it’s not even someone I follow or am connected with.
Jon-Stephen Stansel
That’s a whole other episode.
Joel Goodman
One other thing that that I’ve been thinking about is also my problem with submitting to conferences is that oftentimes just don’t feel like I have a solid idea for a talk, and the way that I’ve kind of gotten around that has been by blogging more, honestly. throwing it old school, I mean, blogs are back. Did you guys know? like I know podcasts came back, now it’s blogging. but I’ve been trying to blog a lot more and write a lot more. and just being able to distill — one, it gets your name out there, but also the bigger following that you have, I mean there conferences, like PSE Web in Canada, that do their entire program selection via vote from the people that are coming to the conference which I think is… well, there are good and bad things about it in my mind, I’m not going to dive into that. But I think finding ways to write more about the stuff that you do in long-form even, or at least medium-form, you do that, chances are… A lot of your rants end up as consolidated blog posts on jsstansel.com
Jon-Stephen Stansel
With tons of typos. [laughs]
Okay. So, to wrap it up. If you’re presenting at conferences if you’re going to conferences. That’s fantastic. You know, be a part of your professional community but also make an effort to try and learn more from others outside your area. So, as we said, try to go to at least one or two sessions, outside of what you do, and try to reach out to others in your area, and share that information with them, you know, don’t be afraid to send your higher up, say, hey, here’s a link to a conference session video that I saw that I think you’ll find valuable because really, right now. That might be the only way we share some of this information with them, and they need to hear it, and they should be open and receptive to it as well.
Joel Goodman
Definitely.
Thanks as always for listening to the Thought Feeder podcast. I’m Joel Goodman, Jon-Stephen Stansel with me as always. We appreciate your listening. And if you liked the show, we would really appreciate a review or a rating from you, or both. You can do that anywhere — Apple Podcasts, for sure. Go to our site, we’ve got links to everything, thoughtfeederpod.com. Please follow us on Twitter, @ThoughtFeedPod.
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