Episode 29: Building Strong, Values-driven Communities

Episode 29: Building Strong, Values-driven Communities

 
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Danielle Maveal joins Thought Feeder to talk about her experiences building strong communities for brands and the importance of setting organization-wide values.

Transcript for Building Strong, Values-driven Communities

Joel Goodman: Welcome to the Thought Feeder podcast. My name is Joel Goodman with me as always is the disgruntled Jon-Stephen Stansel. And we are super excited to have Danielle Maveal on our show today. 

Danielle has a decade-plus of experience building communities for some giant brands that you’ve heard of. I myself have known about Danielle’s work for almost all of that time because my wife was a member of one of the early communities that Danielle was fostering. And we’re super excited to talk about all the different things that she has learned and kind of synthesized as she’s gone through her career.

And, uh, and hopefully pick up some, good tips for folks in higher ed, and elsewhere to help in the work that they do, fostering their communities. So Danielle, thanks so much for being on the show. We really appreciate it.

Danielle Maveal: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’d be interested to hear what you’ve heard, good or bad. (laughs) I made all my early mistakes at Etsy, so, uh, there was some good and bad stuff there.

Joel Goodman: Well my wife was always a big fan of yours while she was in the Etsy community and,  followed you for a long time through your time at BarkBox. And, you know, I remember watching as you were adopting your dog and like all that stuff. So I feel like a surrogate to some of those communities that you were, that you were building in any case, cause my wife was, was such a fan, but. 

Yeah, we’re super excited to have you on, and I think I just wanted to start out, talking about, how you set goals when you’re first thinking about a community. Like how do you start to approach building a community? What are the things that you look at? Um, in higher ed, especially we, we try to force this idea of “goals before tools.” I say data before goals as well, but like, there tends to be this tendency to go and like get the shiniest new tool, or jump on the shiniest new platform, or, you know, like any of that without really any thought going into it. And so I want to take a step back from all that and, and just hear kind of how you start to plan how you’re going to approach building community for a brand.

Danielle Maveal: Right. Yeah, I really appreciate that because I think most people who come to me they first say, I start a Slack community or a Slack channel or a Facebook group. And to me, that’s not what makes up a community. That’s the platform, but there’s a lot of work that goes into actually building the bonds between members, which I guess is my definition of community, which I always like to start with. I’ll be 45 minutes in on a conversation with someone about community and I’ll realize they’re talking about social media followers and you know, nothing crossed. 

So community to me is a bonded group of people. They genuinely care about each other, show mutual concern. And I’m really obsessed with the type of community called a “web community.” So that’s a community where we’re not all bonded because we share the same interest or we follow the same central figure, but we actually are all bonded to each other, in a myriad of ways. So there’s a web of bonds between us. 

And that’s actually one of the goals I start with. There’s something called a sense of virtual community index. I just got sent this whole report on how you can measure this. So if you go out there on Google and search for this report, academic report on how to measure community, I realized even before I found this report, this was something I was doing. At Airbnb we had something called a “host to host connection index,” and we had to use surveys to understand how connected people felt to each other in the community.

There’s some other hacks you can do to measure that, like how many private messages are being sent between members, how many people are showing up to events and repeatedly showing up. So that connection I think, is an important goal to have. 

And then the other two goals, I always try to go with three goals when I’m building a new strategy, the other two are around connection to the brand.

I build a lot of brand communities. So how do we actually make sure when we’re forming these bonds, that the mission of the brand and the vision that we have, where we’re going together, are aligned? And, the third is another that aligns with business outcome and often that’s bringing users further along in the journey.

So at Etsy, you know, how do we get someone to go from a new Etsy seller to that quit your day job stage, where they are able and know all the tips and tricks to do to optimize their shop so that that can be a full-time member and that community is actually supporting their growth along the way?

Jon-Stephen Stansel: Yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. You know, and I think that’s something that definitely applies in higher ed, as we try and build communities from, our incoming freshmen. a lot of universities have Facebook groups for that, or, all the way through, you know, alumni communities and, and fostering those.

And, and I totally agree with what you said. It’s about those. Interrelations and kind of sponsoring that. So, how can do you think, you know, we, as, a community moderator or, somebody working in building communities can, sort of foster that, growth and that, connection?

Danielle Maveal: I think first you have to create the space for people to come together and it’s gotta be a safe enough space that people go from their public self to their private self. And I think often we think an online platform might do that for us, like a Facebook group. But I think something on a Facebook group in itself to me is not a safe enough foundation for these types of connections. 

So what you’re trying to do with like getting, there are some tricks you can put into play when you’re trying to get people to move from their public self to their private self, um, that I like to do with events.

Now, the nice thing about education is that you are actually coming together a lot of times. I mean, COVID times have made this hard, but we’re figuring it out. And when you’re bringing people together beyond the main goal of, you know, we’re all learning, I think there’s some other things you can put into play, get people to bring those walls down. 

Play is one. There are a lot of amazing teachers that do this well. And if you can play with each other, you’re being vulnerable, especially as you get older and adults. This is the hardest one when I’m working with brand communities and I’m telling, you know, grown-ass men to, you know, be goofy and improv, you know?

Uh, but you know, maybe when you’re just out of high school, you still have like, you know, there’s still a sparkle in your, I don’t know.  (laughter)

So play is great. Co-creation is great, which I think we could do in education quite easily. So what, how are we building a resource together that that will serve the community?

If you go back in ancient times, uh, we did a lot of dance and movement together. I was just at a protest and realizing that you don’t talk to anyone at a protest, but by the very end of it, you feel like you’re one, like this one community that was formed and that is triggering shared movement. Like, you know, when we, as a tribe would move together, there was some bond that was built between us. So shared, uh, movement or dance can help create those bonds. 

Stories, of course. So if we’re telling stories about each other, that will really help us see another side of ourselves that might not be public.

I think dialogue is an easy one, especially right now when we have Slack and Facebook groups and all of these ways to discuss topics. And I think, you know, it can go down a negative road often, but we still need it. So if we can create safe spaces where we’re really getting into dialogue with each other and going a little bit deeper, these are just some of the things I think about implementing when I’m building a strategy and trying to create bonds between groups, people.

Jon-Stephen Stansel: Another thing that, you know, I think is really important in creating those bonds is talking about diversity and being inclusive and all of that. So how does that play a role in your community-building?

Danielle Maveal: Yeah, I think that goes back to this hierarchy of needs foundation to build bonds between people as a safe place that we feel like we can be vulnerable. And of course, we’re aiming for belonging, that is the end goal that we all feel like we belong here. So diversity and inclusion are so important from, you know, inviting your first members, that’s really going to start to form the DNA of the group and then monitoring the discussion. Oh, actually step back before monitoring the discussion, but laying that foundation with a really clear set of, uh, like a code of conduct. 

I think often we start a community, it might just be 10 or 12 people getting together, and we all might lightly know each other, so we don’t put these rules in place. But if you don’t put that in place from the very beginning, the DNA will start to grow and cracks will start to show up and bad behavior, which, you know, might be very subtle, uh, will slide by. So thinking about these things, when you do bring people together really early on, what was the code of conduct? What do we say? What kind of behavior do we accept here? What do we not accept? 

And then also our values. So what are the values that we want to attract in members and then reinforce once they come through the threshold into our community? So a set of community values are also important.

Joel Goodman: We had a conversation recently about how values play such an important part in just a brand’s, identity, in the way that our brand reaches out. And it’s interesting how uh, important, having a defined set of values and actually being able to, to, you know, verbalize those or write them down and have them set, does play such a huge part in helping mold and shape and guide the communities and the, and the various, people, groups that you’re attracting and trying to engage with as you’re going through that.

And I think in higher ed, especially. Like, higher ed does actually a decent job of setting down the kind of code of conduct thing, but maybe not quite as good of a job in communicating what those values are. And I wonder how, how you’ve gone about it, about, maybe improving how values get communicated to, to communities and maybe even internally, uh, as a way that helps to I mean, make your job easier as someone that’s built, you know, that’s helping build the community. But, but I think also just, just express that there’s care, but there are also rules and, and all that sort of thing. What are, what are some things you’ve learned in terms of better-communicating values to the audiences that you engage with?

Danielle Maveal: I would say the best community values I’ve ever seen have been the internal employee values at Airbnb. And that community is, you know, 5,000 employees. And what values are important to Airbnb and then to the people that we hire? And then how do we reinforce that? So I look to replicate that in community work, but I can give you an idea of the kind of things that they do.

So when you are applying for a role at Airbnb, you actually have a series of interviews that ask you questions related to each of the values. So not only do we just post our values on an internal hub, but we actually use them when we’re evaluating new people that are joining our community. And then when we evaluate each other every six months internally, we look at the values and we see what work have we done that’s aligned to the values? And where are we like not actually hitting the mark? 

I just think it’s so important not to set values, but to just implement programming that supports them. 

There are also ways that we would recognize each other and give each other tokens, which is a community tool. So a meaningless gift that is aligned to a value and then like creates meaning for me. 

So these are the kinds of things when I’m building communities, now that I look at. I have this idea for a Slack app that you set your value, and then you have a Slack emoji related to each value. And then the community, when they see the value exemplified out in the wild, they can receive Slack emojis as tokens to support that behavior.

Jon-Stephen Stansel: Yeah, that’s incredible. And I think that’s one thing, you know, one other thing I want to clarify, we already touched on a little bit earlier is about, you know, these not just being a platform. I think one thing I’ve kind of been on my high horse lately about it is just telling all of your employees to like tweets and like content is not employee advocacy. It’s not building a community. Just posting a group photo of your community, isn’t building a community. 

But I can say that till the sunsets and, that’s me saying, “this is what it’s not.” What does, what does that look like platform-specific, too? Like, what do these communities look like, on various platforms?

Danielle Maveal: Yeah, I think that’s important. And also building, so you have this set of values. What I’ve seen happen a lot recently is communities that have to go back to the drawing board and look at their code of conduct, and look at the values. And I think it’s important to have programming that supports these things, but it’s also important to be flexible and understand where you might not have had all the voices in the community give input.

And now it’s time to go back to the drawing board.   

Joel Goodman: How do you see the interplay between how an organization’s like internal values apply to how they reach out to the general public or to external constituents? And, do you have any good examples of those? Cause I think we could come up with a ton of bad examples where there, you know, there isn’t enough, there isn’t enough like personal internal value to an organization to make it something that, feels very, transparent or genuine, I think, to their external audiences, basically like employee versus customer, I guess would be the most general side of it.

But, have you, have you noticed a difference between maybe how, purposeful an organization is internally with their values and, and how much better they’re able to engage their external audiences because of that?

Danielle Maveal: Yeah, I think Airbnb’s values are so permeated into the employees’ experience that it actually naturally becomes part of the work and decision-making. You know, the values are reflective of the mission, so every partner is aligned with the mission. And what’s kind of nice is when you have this sort of rubric of values, if somebody is even slightly like 10 degrees off, there’s not only one person that notices, but it’s like a whole kind of shift in energy. Everyone’s like, what is going on over there?

And I’ve actually watched it happen where it’s like, we’re planning this big event and these are the people that are going to show up. And, I haven’t even have to say anything, but I’ve sort of watched — it might be like a new person or like a wrong hire or something — but that project find a way that it hits a wall. 

So if the values are strong enough where we’re supporting them and we believe in them, and it’s not just something that we post up on an internal hub or external hub, the community self-organizes and really understands what behavior is right and wrong. And that will bleed out to the external-facing marketing or media or partnerships. Things like kind of fall in line, at least for the most part. You’re always going to slip through, but we learn from that.

Joel Goodman: Do you find that different outposts that, communities set themselves up on, whether it be, different social media platforms and maybe it’s different forums or kind of like, when you have community members that are off kind of representing, or maybe misrepresenting what your internal values are, uh, on other places, do you find that those people need different needs in different places where they’re representing your community, or do you find that that kind of self-organization and I guess, I don’t know, organic value set, uh, goes and, and works itself out in, in the various places? 

I think that’s one of the biggest challenges that we have is that communities aren’t, you’re not necessarily just like, you know, putting the community inside one bubble, it’s all these community members go out and become representatives of what you’re doing and in all the various public spaces that they inhabit.

Danielle Maveal: Yeah, I think it’s a, you’ve really got to create the entire ecosystem and trust that your onboarding and your community programming, anything you’re doing to support leaders that go out into the wild and do their own community projects is strong. And that your own brand and mission is strong. 

So I’ve seen amazing community teams, but that are working under management, that doesn’t have a strong vision for them. And then the leadership will say, Oh, you’re, you know, actually not supporting our business goals or business outcomes. And then we see people out in the community not representing the brand in the way that we want, but we didn’t get that focus from leadership. Uh, so it’s, it’s, uh, a tough question because it’s like an entire ecosystem has to be thoughtfully built.

And I think with community, we, throw something up out there, and then sometimes it takes off, you know, like wildfire and it’s out of control because of hasn’t been, thoughtfully designed from leadership all the way down to the team that’s designing the program.

Joel Goodman: When it’s that kind of, that interplay that you were talking about earlier with web communities, it’s like, it’s all kind of intersected and integrated into how people think and respond to each other and act, and that kind of depth I think is, uh, I think you’re right. I think it has to come, it has to be a very central, purposeful, intentional kind of building of brand, of value, of, intention, all of that.  we look at that I mean, JS and I complained about that in higher ed a lot is that,

Jon-Stephen Stansel: We complain about a lot in higher ed a lot.

Joel Goodman: We complain a lot. We complain about higher at a lot in general. Uh, but this, in particular, is I was actually having conversations about this week with some, with some higher ed leaders.

But I, you know, especially with the challenges that have happened with COVID and I think, I think a lot of brands are facing this as well, brands in general.  It’s that if your, if your brand doesn’t have a, have a clear purpose, a clear set of values, a clear message, you’re competing with a lot of other people that are probably doing something very similar to what you do, if not exactly the same and if their brand promise, their messaging is just a little bit more well-defined, then you’re potentially in trouble.

And I think that when we talk about communities and, internal communities, how that extends out to external communities,  it’s the systemic nature of large organizations, really. We talk about the systemic problems in higher ed a lot because I think a lot of times, you know, leadership is very concerned with kind of this more traditional sense of, you know, higher ed is about educating people and that’s it. But, in the modern world, it’s also about brand it’s about what your intentions are as an organization and institution. It’s about the values that you hold and your internal community holds. 

And I think a lot of, a lot of student affairs pros see this. So the people that are actually, I mean, they are on the ground building communities with their students, with the students on campus, they’re doing the programming inside of their residence halls and that sort of thing.

And, and even they, I think going back to your example of teams that are, you know, very talented at doing community work, just not having leadership that understands it or really gets it. That’s I think that’s a common problem in a lot of industry just in general.

 Are there, I mean, other repercussions that you’ve seen or noticed that kind of stem from this, this systemic issue of maybe leadership not being quite in tune with the importance of being intentional and being very clear with, with how their communities are built?

Danielle Maveal: Yeah, I think what you were saying, made me think about how important it is for a brand or organization if they’re building community, that they aren’t building a space for their users, their members, their students to bond and gather and have fun and build friendships. Yes, that’s great, that’s what community is. But right now anyone can build a community. There are free platforms out there and I can build a group for myself. 

So why am I doing this here? How is this aligned with the mission? How I am being part of one community, which is the brand/organization, and all the students, members, users, how do we feel like we’re one community going one place together?

So if leadership is not in tune with community programming and the community, they will go off somewhere else and someone else will come on by and swing and pick them up, cause they will have a mission. So, um, I’ve built really powerful feedback loop programs through community, which has been the most rewarding part of my work, where we are collecting stories from the community and sharing them with the team internally.

And we’re able to go back to the community and say, because we deeply understood you because we are so close and aligned and are connecting so often, we were able to give these inputs to the team and here is the impact that I’ve made and how we’re getting closer to our mission because of this work we do together.

And so if there’s that disconnect and like this is a program that lives in a Facebook group, and that’s it, yeah, I don’t think anybody will be that excited to hang out there for too long.

Joel Goodman: Yeah.

Jon-Stephen Stansel: Yeah. I want to like shout that from the rooftops of like, you know. Especially when we get feedback from students on social media, that, that they know that not only are we, are we listening, we are implementing, we are taking into account what those feelings are. And, and just like you said, there are a million places that they can start groups.

Like they can have their communities and all sorts of other places. So why would they, why would they, they join this online community that’s not really paying any sort of attention to them when they could go off and have, have their own? Set, their own community values and have their own standards, and, and not come to ours.

So one of I think the toughest things in building a community and managing a community is when you have those toxic community members, right? You know, recently you sent out a Substack article on this and, and about a time you had to deal with a toxic community member. So would you mind talking a little bit about that and how, how to handle those voices?

Danielle Maveal: Yeah and this is the toughest part for me. And actually probably why I, I’m not the kind of community manager that manages forums. Um, I don’t have the patience for it, um, unfortunately. I build the programs, I let someone who’s really good with people, uh, manage those tough conversations, but, I have learned a lot along the way.

I think in that article, I talk about how we had some pretty toxic members in an early community that I built. They were very vocal about changes that they thought would negatively, negatively impact them and others. And they also turned, uh ended up turning on other members who were not on their side.

So it became a really toxic environment. And what I did, when I did this, I thought it was wrong, but when I looked back, I realized it was right. So I removed the members completely from the community. And they went off and created their own website, dedicated to how much they hated the community. 

And for years I thought this was like, the worst thing that I did and it really created this space for trolls to go live and be anti- our community.  But what I had realized in my wise old age was that I actually had kicked these people off the Island and they were on their own raft, shouting, and raving and ranting, and sharing their theories. And, uh, they were doing that off of the platform onto this like little, you know, Blogspot, you know, part of the world that no one else would find.

And at the time was the worst thing I’d ever done. And now I look back and I’m like, Oh great. I just sent them off. And they actually attracted more toxic members to them. 

So I think looking back how I might have stopped that from even gaining the momentum that it gained was, be much more decisive. And I think what was hard for us is actually at that time, not a ton of people 15 years ago had years of online community management experience. You know, we didn’t know really what we were doing and we were young kids, which was pretty funny, you know? 

This was at Etsy. I’ll just say it, it’s publicly on my newsletter, but, we were a bunch of 20-year-olds running this marketplace. And, uh, you know, we would get slack on that from members who were 30 and 40 years old. “You don’t know what you’re doing!” Blah, blah, blah. And I, it was pretty funny. I’m like, well, who else is going to be doing this? No one else is going to quit their day job to work in this empty warehouse in Brooklyn. Uh, that’s like a 40 year old professional. So sorry. It’s us. 

Um, so yes, we did make a lot of mistake. But I think one of them was, nobody knew how to deal with these, uh, super toxic members. And so we like, put up rules and then like, we’d get really close to the line and we would kind of give them like, okay, well you’re muted for a few hours. And like, we would just kind of like, uh, have these kid gloves on.

And I think what we should have done is, um, been a little stronger and really realize that these were toxic members. They were showing toxic, behavior. Uh, they didn’t have great motivations, which is totally different from someone who’s saying, you know, Hey, this is something I’m concerned about. You know, of course, you want to hear out what everyone has to say, but if you can tell them motivations or not, aligned with values you should just cut that person out as soon as possible and be really decisive about it. And that’s something we weren’t doing. And, we had many decision-makers making many different decisions. And then backing, some would back one member up in some wouldn’t and it was a hot mess, so. 

Be really clear about what your roles are and if someone breaks it or it continually comes close, just get rid of them as quickly as possible. And that actually shows a good example to other members that, you know, this is the kind of space we have here, and these are our values. It’s the code of conduct. We don’t mess around. It’s very clear. I think that makes everyone else feel a little safer and, um, secure that there is someone in charge of this thing, even if they are a 20-year-old kid that doesn’t know what they’re doing. At least they know what decisions we’re making and why.

Jon-Stephen Stansel: Well, even if you’re not a 20-year-old kid that doesn’t know what they’re doing, you’re assumed to be one.

Danielle Maveal: Yes. Yes. That’s true.

Jon-Stephen Stansel: But yeah, I, I think you’re absolutely right. It’s one of those things it’s it’s you have to, you have to stay on top of it. You have to remember a few things. You have to remember that sometimes people are haters because they don’t know how to be helpers. Right. And yeah, I, I think that that’s an important lesson to learn. Like, figure out some ways to either bring them into the fold or get it under control.

Joel Goodman: So Danielle thinking about your career, um, and thinking about all the different communities that you’ve, built or had a hand in building, or, people that you’ve guided towards building communities in, in better ways. Are there, are there a few just, key points that, you would recommend to either new community managers or, or folks that are in positions where they’re responsible, maybe know they’re a single person responsible for trying to engage their communities? That happens a lot in higher ed. You know, you just don’t have the staffing for it. 

Are there, are there kind of a few key points that you’d recommend that, that those people keep in mind as they’re, as they’re thinking through how to engage their people, how to, how to build those ecosystems and environments and how to just facilitate, better connection between, between the folks that, that comprise their communities?

Danielle Maveal: Yeah, I would say I’m very obsessed with the idea that community is built one conversation at a time. And the more authentic and vulnerable those conversations are, the stronger the bonds that are formed. So if you are running, say a social media account, how can you go a little bit deeper with your followers and have meaningful conversations?

I think like Instagram Lives are great. Places and formats where we’re actually getting together and were face-to-face in front of each other, building bonds between each other. Uh, I think where people go wrong often is they mistake a marketing strategy for a community strategy. And so they’re looking for the content and the programming that will attract the most people, which is not, you don’t need to throw that out, that is of course important. We’re trying to bring people into our communities and attract them and inspire them with our brands and missions.

But then once they’re in, cross the threshold into your community, you also need to think about programming that’s going to connect them together, make them feel like they’re tied to each other and closer to each other.

I mean, you know, we talk all the time about loneliness, the loneliness epidemic. And, if all of us could shift, you know, 30% of our marketing and awareness focused to connection and what our community, what are common challenges our community’s facing? And what kind of programming could we create to bring them together to deal with these things together.

Um, I just think we’ll, we’ll be a more connected, bonded society. If we can turn some of this social media and marketing horsepower that we have to, you know, real human connection and conversation.

Joel Goodman: All of our conversation today has made me think back to when I was in grad school. So I did a, I did an online program. I was living in Chicago, did an online program through a university in New York. And I just remember feeling super alienated as, as a student. Um, as, you know, as a full-fledged student paying them a lot of money for a master’s degree, because they didn’t know how to bridge those gaps between their on-campus community and their online folks. 

And it’s like, you know, all we had as online students were kind of your typical digital LMS with forums and you know, everything else. But it was just, it was just these little things where they, I would get so angry because they would have like, They’d have a great, speaker coming to campus and they wouldn’t even live stream it for us, or they wouldn’t record it and give us the videos later. And we’d still get the emails as, as students all across the country and all over the world being like, yeah. 

I’m like, I’m not flying from Chicago to New York City, you know, every week. One, I’m poor because I’m paying you, tens of thousands of dollars for this degree. Like I’m not, I’m not going to fly to New York to see this colloquium, like. At least record it, like why, why weren’t we given the same opportunities to, to be a part of it. 

And one of the things that I’ve thought about since then is this was, ugh, what I graduated in, I got my master’s degree in 2012, so it’s, it’s been eight-ish years. uh, one thing I’ve been thinking about is a lot in, in our specific industry of higher ed is how institutions can start to bridge those gaps and make these, you know, these, these people that are supposed to be members of a community actually feel like they are, and, and not necessarily have them separated by the location that they’re in and that sort of thing. 

I think with all of the tools, and I think with all the expertise in, fostering those communities that exists with people like you, Danielle, like I, there are definitely ways that universities can, can start to do that. Or I think any organization that has sort of a temporal audience or a temporal community, as well as like a digital-only community, there are ways to make those people feel like they’re connected to each other. You know, the internet is not a separate place, right? Like, like it’s, it’s been a refrain for a decade for me. Like we’re not somewhere else because we’re on the internet. We’re, we’re in the same places and it’s just another way for us to build those connections and communities with each other. 

And, so I want to say thank you for being on the show and having this discussion with us cause I, I think it’s something that’s, it’s something that’s, that’s critical to all of the work that, that we do in, in any organization. But I think it’s something that, higher ed can really start to think about and apply and, and really should because it has, it has business goal implications, but I think it just has, brand strength implications in a time when everything else in the world is working against higher ed, you know, pandemics and politics and money interests and everything else.

So thank you so much for having this conversation with us.

Danielle Maveal: Yeah. Thank you for listening and asking me to be here. This was awesome.

Jon-Stephen Stansel: and can you tell us where we can find you online? You know, your Twitter website or anything you want to plug.

Danielle Maveal: Yes, on Twitter I am DanielleXO. And my website’s daniellexo.com, which you can, um, actually I have a knowledge share up there which has anti-racism resources for community managers, which might be helpful, and a link to my newsletter.

Jon-Stephen Stansel: That’s awesome.

Joel Goodman: Thank you so much for listening to the Thought Feeder podcast. If you would like to subscribe to our podcast, you can do so at thoughtfeederpod.com. we’re also on Apple Podcasts where you can leave a rating or review. You can follow us on Spotify and you can find us probably in whatever podcast app that you use.

Our website also has full transcripts of every episode that we’ve had, which I believe we’re up to almost 30 at this point. There’s a lot of content. Go listen to it. Uh, once again, we want to thank Danielle Maveal for being on the show today. Danielle, thank you so much for being with us and having this great discussion.

Danielle Maveal: Thank you guys for having me. This was great.

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